I am not qualified to diagnose a narcissist. I have no training. I do, however, have hours and hours of personal research to cite. While my father hasn’t had an actual narcissism diagnosis, he was declared psychotic when I was a small child and had electric shock therapy. Also, my therapist agrees with my assertion that my father has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She definitely agrees that I can identify as one of the adult children of narcissists.
Still, not qualified to diagnose a person with NPD.
I will just say that I know a guy who is extraordinarily like my father and we’ll leave it at that. We will call him Percy. Because I think Percy is a stupid name.
I have had people come to me asking for relationship advice. Percy has on occasion overheard people asking for relationship advice and he sticks his big, stupid ugly nose into a conversation that he was not invited to.
“Why would anyone ask her for relationship advice? She’s been married 3 times. She’s obviously the worst choice when asking about relationship advice”.
I’m paraphrasing here, but that is pretty fucking close to actual words spoken.
Motherfucker. Really? I’m pretty sure that being involved in multiple failed marriages makes me the damn expert. It’s all about the experience.
Truth be told, it’s more than just 2 failed marriages. I began a relationship that started just after I turned 15 years old and lasted until I was 20. That was my first big failed relationship.
We will call my first boyfriend Bruce. The reason I pick Bruce is because my one of my mother’s two brothers called him Bruce the entire five years Bruce and I were together. He never once called him by his given name. I love that uncle. He’s my favorite.
Bruce was a Senior and I was a Freshman. He was exotic. He grew up in Buffalo.
Trust me, Buffalo, New York is exotic to people in Dry Ridge, Ky.
We moved from Northern Kentucky to Dry Ridge, KY when I was 14 years old and my life was just fucking over. Dry Ridge was horrible. I didn’t understand the kids there. There was nothing to do. I missed downtown. I missed a lot of things.
I started dating Bruce just a few months after we moved there and embarked on a 5 year relationship with a young man who, while more sophisticated, was very much like my father.
He was emotionally abusive and distant. On occasion, he was physically abusive.
I went through high school in a haze of depression and anxiety. It was my teen years that my father was most cruel to me. I tried to make myself as small as possible around him. Then there were the times that I could take no more and I would fight back. I never won. Not even once. I was continually reduced to a sobbing, hysterical ball.
Then in my spare time, I spent it with a boy who criticized everything about me.
I remember planning to break up with him when I was in my Junior year. I had enough. I was trapped and controlled by this boy. He laughed at me and told me that he was only with me because he felt sorry for me. No one else would want me.
I stayed for three more years.
By the time we broke up, I had started trade school to learn how to work in data processing.
We split up at a Euchre tournament. By this time, I hated him with everything I had.
He asked another girl out the same day we broke up and I was heart broken by it. How could he? Sure, I hated his guts, but I was at least grieving the relationship for more than 4 hours.
As much as I needed to be gone from him, I learned this: It’s fucking hard when a relationship ends.
I also had that ‘you suck’ message pounded into me by two different men during some extremely vulnerable years.
I was far from prepared to be in another relationship. I made it about 10 months of being single before dating the man who would become my first husband.
I went on a few dates during my year of being single and I pined over a boy who would have likely turned out to be the biggest disaster of any poor relationship decisions I have made.
I won’t say much about husband number one. He is my older son’s father. I will just say this: We were not suited for each other.
My relationship with my second husband began not quite after my first marriage ended.
See? I make really bad decisions.
The first marriage was over, we just weren’t divorced yet and it’s possible that husband number one hadn’t been informed yet that the marriage was over.
Can’t undo what’s been done though.
I dated and married someone who used to be my boss.
We will call him Dick. No, further explanation needed, right?
Nearly everyone that knew Dick, loved him. He was a gentle guy. He was sage. He was artsy and creative and talented. He was crazy smart. Genius even.
He was someone else when the curtains were drawn. He was not loud or violent, but he could hurt. He was the narcissist my father tried so hard to be but was never quite charming or clever enough to succeed.
The marriage ended after two years. We had no children together. He’s also dead now. It happened many years after we divorced. I wasn’t sad.
In looking back over my failed relationships, I learned that I did indeed behave in a way for an adult woman who was raised by a narcissist father behaves. I looked for men who were like my dad.
I have no joy when I discover that my decisions, my life, has been decided based on injuries I received from my mentally ill father. I so much resent and am frustrated that I have my own mental illness to contend with now. I have lived with anxiety and panic attacks and depression and it could have been avoided. It was given to me. I wasn’t born with it. Probably.
My relationship with Randy hasn’t been smooth sailing. We’ve had rocky roads that were so rough that we both bear scars. But we kept going. We have similar damage and sometimes that can clash. Especially when my inner narc clashes with his inner narc or vice versa.
What we do have is a deep respect for each other. We have found an understanding of each other that is raw and not always pretty, but it is genuine. We make each other laugh. We like the same things. We listen to the same music and can discuss it for days or weeks. Or a lifetime. At least so far.
Getting back to the point: Of course I can give a friend advice about relationships. I’ve made mistakes. Huge ones. But I’m not dumb. I have a pretty good grip on people and when you see people follow a pattern and have seen the same result multiple times, well then, you feel pretty confident in discussing such things with younger people who need guidance.
Perhaps I did follow a pre-determined pattern for many years of my life. What I need to always focus on now, is that I am in a relationship I actually want to be in and I have been since 1995.
A lot of people will never have what I have with Randy. I am eternally grateful for him and for us.
I am learning to let go when people like Percy ridicule me or try to make me feel like I am less or inferior. This is not my problem. I would like to say that I am trying to find compassion for people like him. They are broken beyond repair and that is sad. I don’t have compassion for them, though. I dislike them and I’m afraid of them.
I’m shooting for the ability to take away their power to hurt me. I’m also giving myself permission to not like them. I don’t have to.
Get. Out. Of. My. Head. 🙂 You rock. I am embarassed to admit it, but I have three failed marriages under my belt. Not proud of it but I learned a hell of a lot as a result. And like you , it makes me the motherfucking expert on relationships because if there is any mistake to be made, honey, I have made it. I have the tee shirts, scars and emotional bruises to prove it. But I also have the learning and the better understanding of myself and other’s inner demons and what brings people together and what makes for a good relationship because after you figure out the 10,000 ways it doesn’t work, the way it does work becomes crystal clear. I am in a new relationship which is so differen from any other that it blows my mind. It is with someone who actually loves me for me and finds me attractive and loveable. For the first time I have someone who isn’t ripping me apart, telling me what I am not, how I don’t measure up, how I am broken. He is not someone I have to “rescue” either. Holy shit, I am in unchartered territory. Like you, I picked my father (and mother) over and over and over again. Each time trying to rescue my own father and get the approval of my mother through that person and each time that person reflected back to me what a piece of garbage I was by letting them treat me the way they did. It was the same guy, different name. Each one a Percy. They may seem different to start, but eventually it was “insert dysfunction here”. I am so very happy that you were able to find Randy and he could see what we can all see – a gorgeous, intelligent, witty woman who is a survivor and who, despite all she has gone through, still gives a shit about people and is willing to put herself out there to help the rest of us inmates feel a little saner. I love you girl!
Thank you so much. It’s been a long long journey for me. I’m in a pretty good place now, but I still have demons to contend with.
I used to be embarrassed by my failed relationships, but I’m not anymore. I am who I am and I don’t feel the need to make excuses for myself anymore.
I can’t begin to tell you how much I appreciate the things you’ve said, trust me when I say it means a lot to me and helps on those days when I’m feeling bad about myself. 🙂
It’s great that you’ve finally found someone you can connect with. When we are in a vulnerable state, it can attract the wrong sort to take advantage of us. I kind of think that is more likely than the alternative. The lucky ones find someone who strives to understand their scars and help them heal. I think it’s safe to say we can you you among the lucky ones.
And I agree. Who better than you to give advice with your experience. You know first hand that the vulnerable are not always aware they are embarking on a damaging relationship?
exactly! And I do know how fortunate I am. I love spending my days with someone I want to be with. It’s such a change from my entire life prior to this relationship.
Because Percy *is* a stupid name. Fuck Percy. I’d take advice from you anytime. (Disclaimer: I don’t always make good decisions and am mostly irrational. But still!)
Hahahah…I swear, I would only try to give you GOOD advice.
I’m not qualified either, but like you I know what I know. The thing about narcissists is that it is rare they are ever diagnosed by a professional. As they would never admit that they may have a problem , or be flawed in any way, it’s something only their victims can attest to. All we can do is compare notes and hopefully survive it, though I’m really struggling with that bit right now.
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For years I was the person other people went to for sound, measured relationship advice. Seems I was great at it when it came to other people, for myself not so much.
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I’m glad you found Randy, or should I say, found each other.
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Hadn’t thought about giving myself permission to dislike people. That’s given me some food for thought. I’ve always tried to find something to like in everyone. I think I need to accept that there are some that just aren’t worth the effort.
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I actually think your fear and dislike of Percy is a good and healthy instinct. My downfall has always been feeling compassion for people who are essentially socio-paths, there is no point as they feel none for you.
Sister, I am so glad we found you as well!
And yes, I believe it’s perfectly acceptable to dislike some people. Some people just really are not likable. I could spend time finding redeeming qualities, but to what end? And Percy? I actually did spend a number of years saying…well…he’s not bad, I just don’t like some things he does. But the truth is, I just don’t like HIM. And I’m good with that.
I have a feeling that I could be making a very long list 🙂
I’m pretty sure that I am your number one fan, but not in that creepy “I’m going to hobble you” way. I LOVE your honesty. I, too, have made a lot of relationship mistakes. Maybe we could start a “Don’t fuck up like we did” relationship advice site. We’d be millionaires.
Have a good weekend with the hubs, Michelle.
We should jump all over that shit!!!
And you have a good weekend as well! My birthday celebration continues with my mom and my sisters. Dad will be there too, but I can ignore him. 🙂
Holy Hell. Like seriously. So many things here make perfect sense to me. SO MANY THINGS.
I married someone that I could control if I wanted, which means I set myself up to become my mother. I have so many problems with this. So many.
I am glad you and Randy found each other.
Oh, I am too..I so much am.
And I think anytime we learn something about ourselves, then that’s a good thing.
OK, a few things here:
First, congratulations that out of the 7 billion people on the planet, you and Randy found each other. I see that as a rare and beautiful situation. no matter how many tries it took. Which brings me to :
Second, one of my own recurring questionable behaviors has been to take advice from song lyrics. Stupid, right? Not always:
And Morgan says, “maybe love won’t let you down.
All of your failures are training grounds
And just as your back’s turned, you’ll be surprised,” she says,
“as your solitude subsides.”
That’s from a Rilo Kiley song called The Absence of God, and the Morgan referred to is Jenny’s best friend Morgan Nagler.
As for giving yourself permission to not like people, they’re not all likable. My mother worked for criminal attorneys most of her adult life, and here’s what she had to say on the subject one night at the dinner table:
I used to think that everyone was born the same, and the way they got in their lives was a product of the things that happened to them… But I don’t think that any more. I think there are people who are born mean.
Granted, she had typed a deposition from a pair of brothers who were mass murderers that day, but that was her point: those people are out there. Liking them for the good you can find in them won’t help.
And lastly, one from the narcs (I love calling them that): Briana had a boyfriend for a while who is a brilliant musician (who has since gotten much better with people) but an abusive narcissist. Once, when she was staying with me in my little studio in East Oakland, she had a fight over the phone with him that was out of hand. At one point she slammed down the phone (remember land-lines?) and ran into the bathroom in tears. He called back and I answered and refused to call her to the phone, as it was mine and I didn’t have to. He said “Listen I don’t know what you think of all this, but it’s not as bad as it sounds.” I told him “It’s not that hard to understand, you’re just a narcissist.” To which he replied “Is that really what you think of me?”
Yes, I laughed at him. It was funny.
THank you so much. Wow. I love those lyrics. Music has always been an inspiration to me and I need it in my life. I have, however, learned to not listen to certain types of songs or specific songs when I’m making emotional decisions.
I’m with your mom. I think people can be born mean. I don’t believe we are all born the same. I’m not a scientist, so what the fuck do I know, but it doesn’t make sense to me that we’re all born the same.
I am not surprised that the narc was surprised to hear you say that. They truly believe there is nothing wrong with them.
Michelle…. You are the mitherfuckin (wo)man! You make me laugh even in the midst of a serious post and I love it! It’s a long journey for all of us (and I have a long way to go still…) but you’ve made it through to a much better part of life. I think you and Randy are awesome together (from your posts and tweets at least). Keep pluggin away!
Thank you, Rocco. I really try to put some levity in when I write these kinds of posts. I don’t always remember to, but I try.
We are awesome together. We have so much fun.
I’m with Rocco. Even in the midst of a very serious post filled with insight that took years to earn….and you still made me laugh. “Dick, let’s just leave it at that!” That is a special gift….and why I always look forward to reading your posts. You can do it all. –Lisa
Okay..and you are my favorite person, today. 🙂 Thank you so much!!
I’m sorry, but Percy is a dick. If given the choice, who would you go to for advice: the woman who has been married to just one man and thus has only experience of that one man, or the woman who has experience with the minds of different men?
I could be biased. I’ve been married and divorced three times.
I love your blog. My dad was an alcoholic, but I see some similarities to your upbringing. So maybe he was also a narcissist. It helps me to know there is someone else out there who know what it was like.
Thank you so much…and yes, it is nice to have a connection with people who ‘get’ it.
I disagree with Percy, who deserves a punch in the nose; I think you ARE qualified. I feel the same way, but because I’ve only had one (great) marriage: I’m not really qualified to give advice because I’ve never *been* through most of that stuff. I’m grateful (eternally) that I haven’t, but it makes it hard to listen to my friends who are in the midst of like their millionth failed relationship and agonizing over “STEF, WHAT DO I DO?” and I just sort of look at them and go….”*nothing*” I have no idea what they should do. (In my head, I’m always screaming at them, “How about, quit taking home guys from BARS when you’re drunk, maybe?!?” but I never say it…)
I think having been through various relationships and survived them DEFinitely makes you more of an authority, not less of one. How can I give advice on something I have no idea about? All I know is my one narrow experience with someone I was lucky enough to find at 17, and we have always gotten along, so I draw a blank on how to deal with conflict. Which is good, because I HATE conflict…
When I’m in a group of friends all bemoaning their various states of bad-relationship-ness…I don’t offer advice, because if I do…they all look at me and roll their eyes and go…”Yeah, what do you know? You’re married to SHANE.” (not in those exact words, but that’s the gist)
Tell Percy he can suck it. You are DEFinitely an authority.
*ka pow*
Thank you, and am I am so happy for you! How fortunate to meet ‘the one’ at 17!
Yeah, it’s hard to see people make stupid mistakes and not say anything. It’s frustrating.
Also, YES..Percy CAN suck it.